Prabhupada vs. Hegel : Whatever idea must exist

 

Prabhupāda: That means he is creating God. Is it not? God is an idea. So his philosophy is that you create by imagination something as God. Actually there is no God. Just like Māyāvādīs, they say, “God is imperson. God is dead.” Like that. And you can create a God. Just like Vivekananda, that is their theory. Therefore they create Ramakrishna as God.

Śyāmasundara: He said that God is the idea behind all concrete objects. Whatever is concrete there is a superior idea.

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Idea can be changed so God becomes a thing which is subjected to the whimsical change of rascals. That is his idea.

Śyāmasundara: He says that God is the sum total of all concrete phenomenon.

Prabhupāda: That’s all right but that means he has no clear knowledge. That’s all. So therefore we can say they are rascals. And one who does not know God, he is rascal. Following, that is our philosophy(?). But because knowledge means to understand God. The animals, they do not understand God. Therefore they are called animal. Similarly, any man, any so-called (indistinct) does not know God, he is animal. He may be nicely dressed, that is another thing, but factually he is an animal, because he does not know God. That is the position of animals. What is the difference between man and animal? That is the difference, the animal cannot know what is God, the man can know. That is fundamental. It may be… There are difference of animals but no animal is able to understand God. And here the difficulty is that one is in the animal’s position, he does not know God but he takes the position of teacher. That is the difficulty of this modern civilization. The person in position of animal is trying to teach others. Andhā yathāndair upanīyamānaḥ as Prahlāda Mahārāja says, “The blind man is trying to lead other blind men.” That is the defect of the modern civilization. We, our Vedic civilization, not our (indistinct) everyone, we accept a teacher, Vyāsadeva, Kṛṣṇa. They must be beyond the, beyond suspicion. Just like there is an English proverb, “Caesar’s wife must be above suspicion.” Is it not? Is it an English proverb? “Caesar’s wife must be above suspicion.” So anyone who is on the position of teacher, he must be above suspicion. That is our first acceptance of teacher. We don’t accept any teacher who is under suspicion. How he can be teacher if he’s under suspicion? Now they may question that if you are above suspicion. “No, I am not above suspicion, but I am carrying the message which is above suspicion. Therefore I am above suspicion.” The peon delivering you four hundred dollars, he is not rich man but he is actually delivering four hundred dollars. That is our position. Therefore we say, evaṁ paramparā-prāptam [Bg. 4.2]. I may be rascal, it doesn’t matter, but because I am carrying the message which is not rascal, therefore I am fit. This is our… We don’t say anything rascaldom because we don’t say anything which is not spoken by Kṛṣṇa or by authorities like Vyāsadeva. That is our position. Don’t teach anyone else, except what Kṛṣṇa teaches. Kṛṣṇa says, “Surrender unto Me.” We say, “Surrender unto Kṛṣṇa.” Just like Śyāmasundara’s daughter, she says, “Do you know Kṛṣṇa?” (indistinct) “No, I don’t know.” “Supreme Personality of Godhead.” She may be child, but the message she is delivering is perfect. The message she is delivering, that is perfect. Is it not? She says, “Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead.” Now the child may (not) be perfect, that’s all right, but the message she is giving, it is perfect. So there is no suspicion about the message. That message is above suspicion. So our position is: you don’t change it. Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam [Bg. 4.2], receive message by paramparā. (indistinct) is the same. Kṛṣṇa says, “Surrender unto Me.” We say, “Surrender unto Kṛṣṇa.” I may be rascal, that is (indistinct) but the message I am carrying is without (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: The idea in itself is that thesis, the idea for itself is the antithesis. Now the idea…

Prabhupāda: The first thing is that idea, anything… Idea is not God. God is substance.

Śyāmasundara: Oh.

Prabhupāda: Anything nonsense idea, that is not God. God has created you. You cannot create God. And they are creating God. Just like Vivekananda mission, yata mata tata patha. As many opinion you have got, you can have your religious way. Yata mata, this is their mission, yata mata tata patha, “Whatever you are thinking, all right.” Ramakrishna, he wanted to realize God from any way. And later on he wanted to realize God by the Mohammedans’ way and he asked the proprietor of the temple to allow him to take meat, cow’s flesh. So when he asked, the proprietor said, “Please go out. Get out.” Now don’t real…, I don’t want the (indistinct). This philosophy also you can realize God in any way, yata mata. Now he wanted to realize in the Mohammedan’s way, therefore he thought it wise that he must eat cow’s flesh. These things are there.

Śyāmasundara: If God is not an idea but He’s substance, how do you mean that, substance? How do you define substance?

Prabhupāda: You define substance. What is your definition of substance?

Śyāmasundara: Substance is the…

Prabhupāda: Concrete.

Śyāmasundara: … the realization of the idea.

Prabhupāda: I know. Something concrete. (indistinct). Substance is concrete. The gold idea and… Just like you know gold, and you know a big mountain. So now you form an idea, the gold mountain. This is idea. But when you see actually gold mountain, that is substance. This is difference between idea and substance. But you have never seen gold mountain but you say gold mountain. You combine some idea. You are thinking, “There is gold. Now if I get the mountain, like gold.” So that is idea. But when you actually find a (indistinct), “Here is a gold mountain.” That is fact. That is substance.

Śyāmasundara: Hegel’s idea is that there is idea, then there is substance but the synthesis is spirit. Spirit combines both idea and substance.

Prabhupāda: Yes, but spirit is, according to our philosophy, the spirit is realized in three phases, brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate [SB 1.2.11]. The supreme spirit is realized in three phases. An example is given, just like you see from a distant place the mountain, you see just like a hazy cloud. You go forward, you will see something, substance, green, and if you enter it you’ll see so many trees, so many animals. So you are seeing the same object but according to your understanding, somebody is saying, “Oh, it is a cloud.” Somebody is saying, “It is some green (indistinct),” and somebody is saying, “No, it is very nice place.” It is a question of where he is standing, to understand God. So those who are standing in distant place, for them imperson. Just like we are seeing the sunshine imperson, and the sun globe localized, and if you have got capacity to enter into the sun globe, you’ll see sun god. Similarly, God is realized in three capacities, brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate [SB 1.2.11]. Either impersonal Brahman, or localized Paramātmā, or the Supreme Personality of Godhead. But if you somehow or other approach the Supreme Personality of Godhead, it is Kṛṣṇa. Then you understand the other two things. And Kṛṣṇa is explaining, brahmaṇo ahaṁ pratiṣṭhā. “I am the resting place of brahmajyoti.” Brahmā-saṁhitā says, yasya prabha [Bs. 5.40], this brahmajyoti, impersonal brahmajyoti is the bodily rays of Kṛṣṇa. Similarly, Paramātmā, īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe ’rjuna [Bg. 18.61], that is another feature of Kṛṣṇa. He is sitting in everyone’s heart. Just like the sun is reflected in thousands and millions of (indistinct). There are no so many suns, there is only one sun. How you will (indistinct)? So God is one but according to realization, one who has seen the (indistinct), he says, “Oh, there are millions of suns.” And one who has not seen the (indistinct), he has seen only sunshine, “Sun is impersonal.” It is a question of (indistinct) person who is realizing. But actually God is a person, sat-cit-ānanda-vigraha. That is (indistinct). We have got clear conception of God, sat-cit-ānanda-vigraha, Kṛṣṇa.

Śyāmasundara: His idea is that…

Prabhupāda: His idea, but we are talking of substance.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. First before, for instance we make a table, we have to have an idea about a table.

Prabhupāda: No, that makes… Anything, if you are trying to approach by your idea, that is not substance.

Śyāmasundara: No, he says first there is the idea of something, then the substance, but spirit is that which…

Prabhupāda: No, no, no that is, that is…

Śyāmasundara: …has both the idea and the substance.

Prabhupāda: When you think that first of all let us have an idea. That is not substance.

Śyāmasundara: No, so we, for instance the table. I want to build a table. So I have an idea this is what it’s shaped like. Then I gather the substance together. There is a table.

Prabhupāda: Now, why idea? If you are going to make a table, you have seen table, that is not idea, that is substance. Why do you say idea? Nonsense, it is not idea.

Śyāmasundara: Suppose I’ve never seen a table?

Prabhupāda: But then you cannot say what is table. (laughter)

Śyāmasundara: But I have an idea, I want to make something…

Prabhupāda: No, no, that is false. As soon as you speak of idea, that is nonsense. You cannot make an idea of God. That is nonsense. What do you think?

Devotee: (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Devotee: All ideas are coming from Kṛṣṇa. (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: Yes. Idea is coming because there is substance.

Śyāmasundara: I’m not talking about God. I’m talking about the objects of the senses.

Prabhupāda: Anything, anything, you cannot make an idea of table. You are…

Śyāmasundara: I can make an idea…

Kīrtanānanda: First of all Hegel uses the word idea, he doesn’t mean just like thinking, some mental image. He’s using the term differently. I always thought.

Śyāmasundara: He’s using it as a rational form which precedes the material form or physical form. Just like I can think in my mind that e equals mc squared…

Prabhupāda: Anyway, that you are speculating. We don’t accept that.

Śyāmasundara: No, but I can put that into practical form.

Prabhupāda: No, practical form we can know. Just like we understand what is God, that Kṛṣṇa, īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ [Bs. 5.1], Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, He is vigraha, He is a form. He is a form but what kind of form—sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha. He is sat-cit-ānanda. Now this sat-cit-ānanda, we have no understanding what is sat-cit-ānanda, but you can understand what is sat-cit-ānanda. Sat means eternal. So you can compare that Kṛṣṇa has got a body which is sat, whereas I have got this body which is asat. Therefore Kṛṣṇa’s body is not like this body. This is philosophy. They are ānanda, blissful. Now if I compare myself whether my body is blissful, no, it is always painful. So therefore His body is not like this.

Śyāmasundara: So you are saying that the ideal also has substance.

Prabhupāda: Substance, everything substance.

Śyāmasundara: For instance the ideal table, the ideal table. I don’t see any table that’s ideal but I can imagine there’s one ideal table…

Prabhupāda: No, no, if you do not know what is table, you cannot manufacture table. You have to ask what is table. You have to ask somebody that… You have got… Practically unless you see or know from some way or other how can you manufacture a table?

Śyāmasundara: Just like Albert Einstein, he thought about this theory…

Prabhupāda: Because he’s Albert Einstein, he’s not perfect.

Śyāmasundara: No, but he was able to conceptualize that the speed of light squared times the mass equals the energy of an object. And then he was able to experiment in the laboratory and actually find out that it was true. But no one told him that formula. He found it out through process of idealizing, ideas.

Prabhupāda: That is another thing. That is, he is studying science. He is a scientist. You cannot say but he’s scientist. He, just like the same you are seeing the mountain from a distance, you are seer. Now the more you make progress you see it is green, then more progress, “Oh, it is (indistinct).” The seer, because he is scientist, he is searching so he is making progress but all of a sudden a layman cannot see like that.

Śyāmasundara: No but doesn’t he have an idea before he finds the substantial…

Prabhupāda: Then idea… Idea means, scientist means they see something, observation. That is called observation. So observation, in the beginning there may be hazy. Just like two scientists, Sir Jagadish Chandra Bose and Marconi were, both of them were trying to capture sound. This, I mean to say, radio. They are theorizing that sound can be captured.

Śyāmasundara: That’s an idea.

Prabhupāda: Not idea. Somehow or other—they are both scientists—they thought it (that) the sound can be captured. So they were making research. Now, they said—Sir Jagadish Chandra Bose, he found first, how sound can be captured but because he was Indian, the British government did not give him the credit. They gave it to Marconi and it was discovered (indistinct) Jagadish Chandra Bose. Sir Jagadish Chandra Bose personally told. I was present in the meeting in my childhood. That is a fact. One Baptist Mission Church in College Square, I saw Sir Jagadish, he spoke there. Then you challenge that “Now I shall give something which no others, which is (indistinct)”. So he gave that the trees have sense, sensitive (indistinct). They can feel when you cut. That machine (indistinct). In Calcutta I have seen Sir Jagadish Chandra Bose Institute, we have got in (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: When we were discussing Plato, Plato has this idea also that the ideal precedes the physical representation and you said yes, that the ideal was in spiritual realm, it exists in the spiritual realm. Because of that we are able to conceptualize some idea.

Prabhupāda: Not that that idea is like this. Just like we have found that in the spiritual world and this is perverted reflection so in the śāstra we hear, cintāmaṇi-prakara-sadmasu, the houses are made of touchstone. So we have never seen touchstone, neither you have seen a house made of touchstone. We have seen house made of bricks or wood. So this is, this may be an idea but that idea comes by hearing from authority. Not that we manufacture that spiritual world must be made up. Like this.

Śyāmasundara: So there is always some substance which forms the contents of the idea.

Prabhupāda: Yes, idea means there is substance but I have not seen it. That is idea.

Śyāmasundara: His idea is that the spirit, the spirit is the one who both has ideas and puts them into practice.

Prabhupāda: We say spirit has got everything. Why this or that? Janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. Everything is coming from. Why this or that? There is no such discrimination.

Śyāmasundara: What about a notion or a concept? How does that come into being if it has never existed before?

Prabhupāda: Notion, notion is the same thing like that. You have got, you have seen gold and you have seen mountain so you can build a golden mountain. Although you have never seen what is golden mountain.

Kīrtanānanda: But if I have that idea of a golden mountain, that means that in the spiritual world that must exist?

Prabhupāda: No, not necessarily. Spiritual world means everything existing. Unless there is substance in the spiritual world there cannot be anything even(?). Because it is said, janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. Everything is (indistinct).

Kīrtanānanda: But I can form an idea that is not in the spiritual world. Am I understanding you?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Pradyumna: We’re a reflection, just like (indistinct) there’s no dogs in Vaikuṇṭha, but there’s dogs here, the dog’s mentality is here.

Prabhupāda: No, therefore it is called temporary. Dog is a spirit soul. The spirit soul is there. That’s a fact.

Śyāmasundara: There’s a, for instance in mathematics, advanced mathematics has to do with sets of formulas, equations, symbols which have no place in reality. They have no substance. They’re merely ideas on paper or in my brain. What about these kind of ideas. They are, how to say, like the square root of minus one.

Prabhupāda: Ad infinitum, ad infinitum, like that.

Śyāmasundara: Like the square root of minus one. There is no substantial reference for that idea but there is an equation: the square root of minus one.

Prabhupāda: The ultimate understanding, if we have accept this formula janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1], so everything is emanating from the substance, so without having a place of that idea in the substance, you cannot have… That is another thing (indistinct). Because you are also a product of that something. So whatever you are thinking, that must be there, in the original.

Śyāmasundara: Suppose I have an idea, tomorrow I want to go to Pittsburgh. So then I actualize my idea, tomorrow if I go to the airplane, airport, get a ticket…

Prabhupāda: But you have heard that Pittsburgh, there is a place, a substance, you may not have seen. So you are preparing to go to Pittsburgh means Pittsburgh is a fact. Not idea. You are not going to idea Pittsburgh, you are going to actual Pittsburgh. That you have known, therefore you are (indistinct). You might have not seen. Just like I came to New York. I never saw it. I got an idea, “It may be like this.” But I was coming to actual fact.

Kīrtanānanda: Now I see your point.

Śyāmasundara: I see your point also but supposing then that I have an idea I’m going to a vacant place, a vacant land and build a house which has never existed before…

Prabhupāda: So you have seen other house, that you have got this idea.

Śyāmasundara: A new house.

Prabhupāda: That’s all right, new house means you have seen other houses. Try to make a new idea. That’s all.

Śyāmasundara: But originally, originally before there was ever any houses.

Prabhupāda: That doesn’t matter. But you have seen another place, a house. (indistinct), we have seen, in that particular (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: No, but millions of years ago before there was any house… Suppose I am the first man on the planet, there has never existed any other house, then I get an idea to build a house, does that idea precede the substance?

Prabhupāda: Yes, according to our philosophy, just like Brahmā. Brahmā, he created another universe in his previous birth, but in this birth he forgot. So therefore he underwent tapasya for one hundred years, is it not? It is stated. So it is called… Just like you know something, so you think (indistinct). This is like that.

Śyāmasundara: If I invent a new invention…

Prabhupāda: It is not invention. That I am seeking where I have kept a thing, that means it is there, I have not forgot.

Śyāmasundara: In other words it existed before.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: Just like I invent the television set…

Prabhupāda: Because you cannot invent anything which is not in the substance.

Śyāmasundara: Even if I invent, for instance I invent the atomic bomb…

Prabhupāda: There is no question of inventing. The atomic bomb, what is that, it is brahmāstra, it is already made. You are not inventing.

Śyāmasundara: Where does the idea come from?

Prabhupāda: From the origin.

Śyāmasundara: From our past lives?

Prabhupāda: From the origin, yes.

Devotee: (indistinct) one of the chapters of the Bhāgavatam, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: That is, that is, I have explained in Bhagavad-gītā that a yogī remembers in due course, past activities, and again he begins. Where he left it, from that point again he begins. Śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yogo bhraṣṭo sañjāyate. He is given the chance.

Kīrtanānanda: So all ideas can be traced back to the original substance which is Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo [Bg. 10.8]. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, “Everything from Me.” Therefore if you get Kṛṣṇa, then you get all the substance. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati. That is the Vedic statement. If you simply understand God, then you understand everything.

Śyāmasundara: So you say that form precedes idea.

Prabhupāda: What?

Śyāmasundara: Form precedes idea, not idea precedes form.

Prabhupāda: Yes, we accept that. Form precedes idea. (indistinct).

Devotee: In one of the chapters of the Bhāgavatam you state that before man has an idea about anything, the Supreme Lord has the idea. In the Vedic aphorism, the Lord’s eyes see before our eyes, His ears hear before our ears, and actually all substance, before you get an idea there must be the substance, and the substance is Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee: And any idea that we have, whether good or bad, that has come from Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (indistinct). That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, Fifteenth Chapter, sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭho mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca [Bg. 15.15], “The ideas are coming from Me.”

Devotee: So if a person thinks he has an idea of a skyscraper building, it’s because Paramātmā has given him that idea.

Prabhupāda: Yes, he gets idea: “Yes, there is a building like that, you can do that.” For man there cannot be anything, invention. He can say “discovered”, there is nothing invented.

Śyāmasundara: So he says that these two things are opposing, idea and substance, they are thesis and antithesis but the spirit contains both of them so it is the synthesis.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That we agree. Viruddha (Sanskrit), viruddha, contradictory thing can be adjusted in Kṛṣṇa. Because what is viruddha, opposite, that is also coming from Kṛṣṇa, and what is substance, that is also coming from Kṛṣṇa. We are thinking viruddha. Just like this same example, cooler and heater. They are opposite but they are coming from electricity. Therefore in electricity power, both can be adjusted(?). You can say, “Electricity can be cooler, electricity can be heater.” That is called viruddha (Sanskrit). Contradictory things adjusted in Kṛṣṇa. Inconceivable, therefore we say inconceivable. Simultaneously one and different. That is our philosophy. Simultaneously we are all equal, one with God, and different. In our…, this material world, it is impossible to think like that, therefore it is called inconceivable.

Śyāmasundara: Everything we can conceive of, that must exist somewhere?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: Just like I conceive of a gold mountain. Now in this world there is no gold mountain…

Prabhupāda: There is actual gold mountain. You have not seen. That information (is) from Bhāgavatam.

Śyāmasundara: Then let us say I can conceive of a building eight hundred stories high.

Prabhupāda: Eight hundred, eight million stories. (laughter)

Śyāmasundara: It doesn’t exist.

Prabhupāda: It exists.

Śyāmasundara: On this planet, no.

Prabhupāda: On this planet, you can say like that.

Śyāmasundara: So you can conceive of it somewhere so it must exist.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like when many Brahmās came. So not only four-headed but millions of headed Brahmās.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. So I can conceive of that so it must exist.

Prabhupāda: The substance is, the fact is you cannot conceive anything which is not in existence.

Śyāmasundara: So somewhere must be the square root of minus one, even though…

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is, spiritual world is like that. But here in this material world, we have got experience, one plus one equal to two, and one minus one equal to zero. In the spiritual world this does not apply. There one plus one equals one and one minus one equals one. Pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya pūrṇam evāvaśiṣyate, Vedic wisdom. Pūrṇam, that from the complete, you take the complete, still it is complete. So where you have got this idea? So therefore you have to know from the Vedic.

Śyāmasundara: So it must exist if I can…

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: But what about the idea that God is evil?

Prabhupāda: He is evil also. He has got His evil also.

Devotee: But not according to our understanding.

Prabhupāda: Yes, but because He is absolute, either He is evil or good, He is God. That is absolute. You cannot say, “God is evil (indistinct) and now, therefore He is evil.” No, He is good.

Śyāmasundara: What about the idea that God does not exist?

Prabhupāda: Yes, He does not exist in the rascal. That’s a fact. The rascal cannot understand what is God therefore (indistinct) does not exist.

Kīrtanānanda: He is covered by the curtain of māyā.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee: (indistinct) I am God.

Prabhupāda: That is also fact. Because you are part and parcel of God. Gold is gold, gold particle is also gold. If you say, “I am God,” that means if you are particle of gold you can say, “I am gold.” Just like you can say, “I am American,” and President Nixon also can say, “I am American.” That does not mean you are President Nixon.

Śyāmasundara: What if I think I am President Nixon? I can conceive…

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, you can hold the post of President Nixon somehow, somebody.

Śyāmasundara: Let us say, “I am now president of the United States.”

Prabhupāda: That is madness. (laughter) You can say, “I am President Nixon,” this will be taken you are, President Nixon as American. Because he is also American. So you are also American. In that way you can say, “I am President Nixon.” In the American understanding.

Devotee: So that madness is coming from the spiritual world.

Prabhupāda: That is not madness. You can say like that that I am… It is not clearly said. You can say, “I am as good as President Nixon, as American.” That is the explanation.

Śyāmasundara: Anyway whatever I can conceive must exist.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

 

(Discussions about philosopher Hegel)